Date: June 26, 2012
Present: David Decker, Joe Nicoloff, Jason Hicks, Gary Kluckman, Michael Parker, & Alan Huelsman.
Excused absence: Darren Onwiler
Quorum Present: Yes
Holishor Members Present: 38
Glenn Dalton and Shannon Mitchlar Holishor Office
Meeting called to order at 7:30 PM
Pledge of Allegiance Recited
Board Meeting Minutes of June 12, 2013
Jason Hicks motions to approve, Michael Parker seconds.
Action: Motion carries.
Transfers of Property - none
Letter from Cary Hunter 1160 dead tree ticket
Would like to know where in ordinances/bylaws allows for this. Wants to make sure that every property owner within holiday shores got the same ticket. Property near his has dead tree, and makes an unsafe environment for his daughter. Tree in cove, hanging over water makes unsafe passage for their boat. Holishor Association has some dead trees that need removed on their out lots as well.
Joe Nicoloff we have a procedure for tickets, they have to go to the hearing committee before they come to the board. The permission is in the community instruments, the lake manager is tasked with doing this.
Glenn Dalton we have had a lot of problems with the draught and then the rain. We ended up last fall with a lot of dead trees. We look at looked whether a tree was a hazard, falling on to road way or a home owners house or neighbors house or property. We took pictures of what we expect to be done. We sent out letters the first of October 2012. We requested a plan of action to be submitted within 30 days of the letter. Several people did contact us and we worked with them on a timeline, but when no contact is may and it is now May 2013, we feel that further action is required.
Letter from Monte Thus (6), Kris Williams (7), and Roger Rawson (1851) asking for a change of Chairmanship for the Boating Committee.
Letter from Richard Hayes (668) adhering to the Sunshine Law and the Illinois Open Meeting Act.
Congratulates the new Board Members. For over 40 years The Board of Directors of Holiday shores have adhered to both the Sunshine Law and the Illinois Open Meeting Act, it was decided that since we are private we didnÕt have to adhere to these two laws. I believe we should be. Asks the new Board of Directors to change the way meetings are held.
Jason Hicks there is a section in our current bylaws under article 4 Directors, section 6, meetings of the board. All regular or special meetings are open to the membership except the board may adjourn to executive session for discussion of Holishor Association personnel, removal or discipline of Board members, Association real estate, litigation, or to discuss rule violations by a member. Nothing herein shall be construed to mean that the Board shall be precluded from discussing Association business at informal conferences of some or all of them at times other than official meeting dates.
(last updated May 21, 2005)
Joe Nicoloff basically we have a pre-meeting normally the first meeting of the month with the lake manager so he can address and give updates.
Richard Hayes (668) asks that the board explain to the people that elected them as to what is so important that have to meet in secret or meet prior to meeting.
Covenant Amendment Approval
Joe Nicoloff: As of today we have 346 approvals for the covenants, we need a total of 1176 to pass so we are still short 830 but we are on the move.
Richard Hayes (668) Your legal council told you this was unconstitutional law and you didnÕt have to worry about it basically. You decided to go ahead with it, mail stuff out at a cost. Now your not mailing stuff out. If you want to make it simple just say you canÕt raise our dues and assessments with out membership vote, and we will vote on it. All the rest of the stuff doesnÕt need to be changed.
Glenn Dalton you may want to reiterate what that it is Rich, because I donÕt think I understand what it is.
Richard Hayes (668) Just tell people that you canÕt raise dues with out your vote, people will vote. DonÕt need everything else in there.
Joe Nicoloff if you have listened to anybody we donÕt want that power, if you would listen.
Richard Hayes (668) Then make it simple gentlemen.
Jason Hicks I appreciate your comments Mr. Hayes and what I would say in response to that is the first time the initiative went by to get the covenants changed it went through a lot of legal advise, and council and what ended up being issued out the membership here was acceptable by them. All these things were written legalese. It would be great to just say in such layman terms. It was approved by our attorney and reviewed again by our attorney and would have passed had the proxies not expired and that was explained. Everything is the same, what we are trying to do is save the Association some money, cost was several thousand dollars to mail out the last round. There was an over whelming support of the covenant changes being passed. Most people donÕt realized that this is a second attempt and donÕt know that they have to vote again. Had what we are doing this round is legal, and it is legal.
Richard Hayes (668) one more time, your legal council told you that this is unconstitutional and you donÕt have to worry about it, wondering why you guys are even doing it. Make it real simple just put it down to one thing, cant raise dues with out members vote.
Glenn Dalton the question of it being unconstitutional was brought forward on a conference call with the Senator who introduced the bill and the States Attorney, and we indicated at that particular time that it was an ILAC conference call where we had several of the members of ILAC there. As indicated, Senator we have been advised by all of our attorneys that this is an unconstitutional bill. And the States Attorney replied I am the States Attorney for the State of Illinois and I am going to comment at this particular time and tell you that your wrong and we will defend it. Now who is going to be the first person in ILAC to go against the States Attorney on this and that is why the Board has pursued it.
Dave Decker in addition to that our Attorney told us to proceed with this. He has been advising us all through the process. Rich I donÕt remember you in any of the meetings with the lawyer, so anything you are hearing, is second hand. So we have been doing everything that we feel is best for the Association, you are absolutely right, we were elected to these positions and as such we are doing what we feel is right for the Association, if you disagree with that, thatÕs your right, if you want to have a say in what is being done then get back on the board.
Speed limit rule
Joe Nicoloff just to let everyone know/clarify the current rule is in enforce, was voted on May 8th, 2013 and reads:
The maximum speed limit of any watercraft on Holiday Lake shall be 55 mph or as defined in the Reckless or Careless Operation section of the Holiday Shores Boating Rules. Operation of said watercraft shall be in a manner that does not create an exaggerated wake. Intentionally ÒplowingÓ or Òpushing waterÓ at speeds greater than no wake, but less than those typically maintained while Òon planeÓ, is not permitted. (5/8/13)
Joe Nicoloff at the last meeting we had a motion come up to suggest that we return to the old rule, that started the clock on that. With that discussion, what we have done, we have directed Lakes and Damns, Public Safety and the Boating Committee to take a look at this rule and come back to the Board with recommendations.
On top of that, the Boating Committee, I have had several conversations with Rocky Lane, and have a letter to read from him. The letter states the disbanding of the current Boating Rules Committee and the new will consist of a more diverse group with interests in small boats, pontoons, fishing, water skiers and muscular powered crafts. Plans on having one person from each category. Lakes and Damn are also approaching this as well. Darren Onwiler is the chairman of the Public Safety Committee and a meeting will be scheduled shortly.
Roger Rawson (1851) Would like Board members to do what the letter is asking and appoint a new chair would like the board to make motion so the Boating Committee will be fair.
Jason Hicks what is the reasoning that you would like the board to appoint a new Chair for the Boating Rules Committee.
Roger Rawson (1851) feels a change of leadership is in order it has been the same, and no face to face meeting. We feel that the Chairman hasnÕt done a good job.
Dave Decker what I told you what to do was exactly what you have done, and up to board president and board to decide what to do.
Jason Hicks I am not willing to make that motion at this time, it appears that Rocky is attempting to make changes and would hope that the interest in working with Rocky would still be there.
Gary Kluckman have you been approached to stay on the committee?
Roger Rawson no
Henry Halverson (1829) I volunteered for the Boating Committee several years ago because I wanted to try and help the community. We did a lot in the first couple of session when the Boating Rules where rewritten.
Since then there have been various issues that have come up to the committee to my knowledge the boating committee chaired by Rocky has never been face to face, email communication. DoesnÕt feel like there is good leadership right now and everyoneÕs voices havenÕt been considered. Supports Roger Rawson for the Chair of the Boating Committee.
Kris Williams (7) Timing of the communication is an issue. Need a more proactive Chairman.
Rich Harrison (1994) The problem with the Association is the new rule on the speed limit. All aware that the real interest is wake boats and wake boarding and what it is doing to seawalls. I think the Board has a fiduciary responsibility to those repairing it in the Association to protect our walls. Wake boats have been become a problem, not only here in this state, but all over the world. Several national tournaments. There are engineering tools, if you wish to do a study as to whether a lake should even allow wake boats on their lake. Measures not only the wake height but the wake train as well. Was fishing in Tunnel Cove, at the back of the cove, and the wake boats were rocking that bass boat, would have to stop to keep the balance and the there was a mud line all around that cove, obviously it is washing out the walls. Has lived here for 27 years, and in the first 20 re-rip rapped his wall one time, and now has bare spots in the last three years. A lot of wake damage out there. Thinks that the speed limit rule should stand as it is written, thinks itÕs the board responsibility to see that it does.
Dan Corey (978) disagrees completely. If this Association chooses to alienate that market our property values will go decline. Glenn has done a great job, water quality is excellent. We have made a significant investment in dredging to compensate for the silt. Alienating the skiing community is not going to fix that problem.
Glenn Dalton one comment this rule has been in place since the 8th of May and have given two verbal warnings, no tickets have been written on this rule.
Jason Hicks this is not an attempt to discourage skiing or anything. Discussions started several years ago around excessive wakes. Prior to that in 2011 we received from the boating committee, one was legal compliance which passed at the same time, and no one seems to have a problem with. The other one was capacity plates, which also falls under legal compliance, it changed into the speed limit rule, because it seemed more appropriate to take a look at the issue of excessive wakes and the damages done. It is about boats operating in a manor that intentionally pushes or plows water, any boat.
Glenn Dalton this hasnÕt been approved by the Public Safety Committee and will be taken to them on July 9th meeting.
Video taping is one of the ways that this will be determined. If we see an excessive wake, doesnÕt matter if there is anything behind your boat or not. My public safety officers write the report, take the video, I review and decide whether or not there will be a ticket. I am not perfect so if you disagree with me, you go to the Hearing Committee, that same officer, that same video and myself are there, the Hearing Committee reviews the tape, reads report and listens to you they make a decision as to what to do with this ticket. If they side with staff you still have the right to appeal to the Board of Directors.
Dale Kennedy (353) Have lived here for over 40 years, and have skied all my life, but I have never seen the wakes like the ones that I have seen lately. Saw a wake a couple weeks ago that looked liked it was on the ocean. When out fishing or taking a pontoon ride, these wakes can make it difficult to enjoy, it just a few people that want to make a wake and it effects a lot of people.
Tony Harris (1222) I have an issue with the process more so than the rule itself. Had be posted on the website and posted in the Holishor Office. Where on website are they posted.
Dave Decker you are assuming when it says Òmust be postedÓ that it must be posted in the minutes, and that is not what the rule states.
Joe Nicoloff on the front page of the website, it was there, not now because it passed. The ones from two weeks ago are not yet posted.
Glenn Dalton the web is something that we are trying to pick up in the office, just like the Holiday Times, because it saves us money. We had a problem with employee turnover, and yes it has caused problems with the web site, and Holiday Times.
Sue Sanders (1031) Back in 70Õs no boat restrictions on size. As Holiday Shores grew there was a need to put boat size restrictions in place. Things have changed again, it is not just a size problem, it is also the way the boats move water. Keeping up a seawall is very expensive and mother nature already makes that difficult. We have over 300ft of seawall that we maintain and most of it is rip rap, we used to have a floating boat dock, built in 1992 held in place by 3 in steel poles, and the wake has destroyed/snapped the three inch poles. We gave it away, we could no longer keep it at our location. Wakes are coming up and over seawalls.
Richard Hayes (668) was on the board when the issue of PWC came up and we as a board came up with 75 hp. And a month later found out that in Florida 95% of accidents were caused by wave runners and if I would have known that it wouldnÕt have been approved. Your in a position to help land owners on the lake to protect there property. I would caution you as board members if you own a wake boat you should not vote. Your duty is to protect our property.
Henry Halverson (1829) We are not saying that we shouldnÕt have rules to protect the lake and land owners, however they need to make sense and be enforceable.
Monte Thus (6) We need more people on committee, Safety, lakes and damns and boating all need to work together on this issue. We all have different knowledge to bring to the table. Have to come up with a measurable rule. Not sure if I am making too big of a wake or not, until stopped and told. Likes to have the beforehand knowledge so rules are not broken.
Dan Corey (978) Glenn you for confirming that the posting were not timely for the rule changes. Asking board to reverse the decision to the speed limit change.
Dawn Schmidt (372) You should know when the rule was posted. It is not just the wake boats causing a problem it is also these big fiberglass boats as well, they are plowing water as well. I know that as a lake front property owner, that it is my responsibility to take care of my seawall. A video tape doesnÕt show us anything, need to be able to accurately measure it, how ever that needs to happen.
Kelly Harris (1222) Has the Board appointed all of the chairs on all of the committees? We have heard from Boat club members that the chair is not handling the job. Were is the rule that the Board has the right to appoint chairs for committees.
Glenn Dalton the board does appoint the chairs of committees, however in some instances the members of that committee vote and the board approves. The Board are the ones that have to evaluate what is going on here, you are making your point, however you are belittling the Board in the process.
Jason Hicks I donÕt know that there is a rule for the appointment by the board for a committee chair, I would have to look into it. I just found out about it myself last meeting. Would like to hear from Rocky about the disbanding.
Joe Roth (1030) Sue brought up a good point, common sense, problem is some people running boats out here donÕt have it. How are you going to enforce this? You have to be careful what you want enforced. We could make a rule that says no skiing except on Monday, Wednesday and Friday what you are asking for. These guys are trying to the honorable thing for the community, and it pains me to sit up here because normally there is only a couple of us here at the meetings. Encourages everyone to come back to more meetings, and be involved all the time, not just when you have a complaint. Lets not cut each other down. I live on the main channel, I have spent $22,000 to put a new seawall otherwise, IÕm not sure that my house wouldnÕt be in jeopardy right now.
Rich Hertel (679) In my opinion Rocky Lane is not the reason the boating rule came in, donÕt blame Rocky, that is what you all are doing. This rule has been worked on for over three years, off and on. If you donÕt know how to drive your boat, then that is a problem. Need to take responsibility for our actions. As far as the Proposed boating rule, it was on the website for almost two months. If you didnÕt take the time out to go and look at the Website that is not the boards fault.
Rocky Lane (1047) I have served on many boards, tried to get a meeting together, and there was every excuse as to why people couldnÕt attend the meeting. The Board asked me to balance this committee out, and since I have been on so many committee and different boards, my experience with it is that large committees, while they talk a lot, they donÕt get much done. So working with smaller committees is much more efficient. Email seem to be best way because everyone could get their input in, even if they couldnÕt attend an actual meeting. I have all of those emails. I was asked to get representation from all areas, and I have done so, I have 6 new members and one open spot. I donÕt even get to vote unless there is a tie. If the Board wants to change the Chair, thatÕs fine, I have served for 10 years.
Dan Corey (978) Who are the new members and what would you like to get done.
Rocky Lane (1047) members are Chair: Rocky Lane. Members Paul Worthey, Joe Roth, Rich Hertel, Keith Schultz, Larry Dallas. DidnÕt know anything about the excessive wake rule, I was not contacted, that is not normal procedure. Not blaming the board at all, board has the right not to come to committee, we only give recommendations.
Dan Corey (978) Anyone has the right to volunteer for a committee. Curious as to who can refuse that person to volunteer.
Joe Nicoloff the Chair has discretion.
Dan Corey (978) Where is that discretion defined.
Dawn Schmidt (372) I served as on Social Committee as chair, and a volunteer off and on for 5 years and have never been approved, or ever turned down one volunteer, they were always given a voice, participation, and a vote. There was no rules as to how Social Committee was ran. There needs to be guidance.
Jason Hicks recommends that if there is an issue that you feel there is a need for a meeting. Call the meeting, I wouldnÕt disallow participation.
Jeanine Votruba (493) I am on the Nominating Committee, I was asked then appointed by the Board. If you are interested on being on the Nominating Committee let her know.
Joe Nicoloff and you and Pam did a great job, we had a lot of names on that ballot.
Linda Beasley (1849) I think the four members that were on the Boating Committee, we should consider putting them back on the Committee.
Rich Harrison (1994) Glenn you have sympathy trying to enforce discretionary rules. Would like to say last weekend early morning was on dock, and 4 young men on a boat with big speakers, I couldnÕt hear the boat, but their music could heard from my dock, no matter which end of the lake they were on at 8 oÕclock in the morning. Not all boats with speakers are a problem, not all boats are plowing water.
Pam Maibaum (2088) I donÕt think that anyone is holding Rocky responsible, I believe that him and his committee were completely overlooked. The speed at which the rule was passed and the fact that they Boating Committee was not consulted is the problem. The wake issue totally needs to be addressed however doesnÕt feel that this rule with such a lack of definition is scary. The terms need to be defined. How many other committees are limited. Not a supported of a limited committee.
Jerry Theodor (1346) I limit the Bulding Committee as well. We are one of the busiest committees out here, we meet twice a month. If we donÕt meet, members can build. We do not have the luxury of waiting around. Different committees are structured differently according to the needs of that committee.
Glenn Dalton in addition the finance and hearing committee are both structured as well.
Monte Thus (6) Every committee has their own requirements and know how many people they want. I donÕt know the back grounds of the new Boating Committee members are, is it going to be lop sided.
Jason Hicks thinks it is great that Joe has reached out to three different committees for feedback on this issue. If you are a member in good standing you are always welcome to attend Board meetings.
Todd Thompson (289) comprise is the key and a solution can be reached. Some of the problem is the seawalls and the bath tub affect. If we keep allowing vertical seawalls to be built on this lake, we are going to keep having the same problem. Any new seawalls being built it should be addressed. Wake board boats also limit what they are doing as far as ballis goes as well as an comprise and meet in the middle.
Michael Parker motions to adjourn to executive session, Jason Hicks seconds.
Meeting Adjourns at 9:30 p.m.
Meeting minutes submitted by Michael Parker